26 Oct 2009 10:36
Our CuChulainn comics aint good enough for French Wikipedia.
(could the French be snobs ?)
NB1 : please, read this article, it's important to us, reTweet, talk about it on Facebook, link to this article on your website, spread the word. We'd really appreciate that.
NB2 : and you'd do us a favor by answering the poll you'll find on the right column of this page. Thanks in advance, dear readers.
After some amongst you suggested it, we decided to add an entry in Wikipedia, relating to our webcomics. In French and English.Wikipedia in English language has, on each page dedicated to Cúchulainn (and related characters), a section dedicated to the works from "pop culture" (music, movies, comics) directly inspired from the character and the myths surrounding it. You'll find mentioned the excellent works of Paddy Brown, and from now on, ours.
Yet, in France, it seems that it's still considered rude to quote from a pop culture "by-product" at the end of a learned article of the online encyclopaedia. To tell you the truth, we're not that surprised. We know the culture in which we were raised quite well, and if it wasn't for you, English speaking readers worldwide, Oghme Comics would simply NOT EXIST. We thank you once again for your support.
Proof of what I just said follows. Suppression, without forewarning nor discussion, by user Ollamh, under qualification of "spam" of the one-liner entries added to the three pages :
Here is the message I wrote to Ollamh on his wikipedia page, asking him for some sort of explanations (this is a translation from French, for the original, switch to French language on this site) :
Comic Books and Mythology, let's talk about it
- message to Ollamh : Hello. I don't exactly understand why the addition of the following mentions in the articles Cúchulainn, Cycle_d'Ulster, Setanta, have been deleted by yourself, and labelled as spam.
- Setanta (Cúchulainn) is the main character in the series of Comics published online by Oghme Comics in French and English language.1
and the reference :
- Webcomics : Cúchulainn, l'Histoire du Chien de Guerre d'Ulster et Cúcuc Petite Brute de l'âge du Fer.
What is incorrect here, formally speaking ? Is the reference irrelevant ? I truly hope this is not a litteral application of this sentence by Mr. Guyonvarc'h (main translator in French of the Irish epics) : ""Therefore, there are only two ways of spoiling a myth : either, as the greek sophists did, one doesn't much believe in it any more and understands or imagines the adventures of the gods as a series of bawdy human-like jests ; or one sees the life of gods as a succession of trifling adventures, hardly good for children. Myths end the course of their deterioration in comic books"" ("la Razzia des Vaches de Cooley", page 44, édition Gallimard l’Aube des Peuples)
The corresponding articles in English language (Ulster_Cycle#Adaptations, Táin_Bó_Cúailnge, ...) all include a specific section for adaptations, listing, among other things, adaptation in comic books format, in English language.
Awaiting your answer, cordially.
The original message can be found here. Don't hesitate to read it, and comment it. Wikipedia is a collaborative tool.
We're now waiting for an answer, and are truly curious as to whether it would address the causes of such a cultural specificity, which would account for the differences in practice between the French and English versions of Wikipedia.
We're also awaiting your comments.
Comments
26 Oct 2009 18:03
By Desruadh
1. On Monday, October 26 2009, 18:03 by Desruadh
Dia daoibh,
well, by the looks of it, somebody has unresolved issues with comics!
Perhaps Ollamh isn't of the opinion that comics are a "worthy" medium with which to retell these stories.
He is, of course, completely wrong. You have every right to include your reference to this Wiki article.
I look forward to reading his reply
Keep up the good work!
D.
27 Oct 2009 20:48
By Ursa Prometheus
2. On Tuesday, October 27 2009, 20:48 by Ursa Prometheus
It was my understanding that Wiki was open to anyone wishing to add information.
While this person who wrote the article may have intellectual rights concerning his own words, that by no means applies to additional entries or information appended by others.
He probably got spanked as a child for reading comics.
I had no interest in reading until I was allowed comics. I wanted to know what was being said in the pictures.
30 Oct 2009 12:48
By Chris
3. On Friday, October 30 2009, 12:48 by Chris
Not only the french wikipedia has massive problems with its content (or the lack thereof).
The german one has it even worse with its
juntahordehuge number of admins that rather delete 'irrelevant' articles than help users how to create content.In my opinion anything that anyone at any time looks up in wikipedia is relevant and worth to be written about (in style and adhering to the quality standard ofc.
)
31 Oct 2009 21:19
By cathbad
4. On Saturday, October 31 2009, 21:19 by cathbad
Thank you for your support.
To tell you the truth, I was quite (un)surprised by the reaction of the author/admin of the articles relating to Cuchulainn.
I've had a feeling very close to that my wife had when she was doing her thesis of Art history a decade from now, striving to get over gatekeepers jealously protecting their little secrets as if they were invested with some divine mission of holy obfuscation.
As a matter of fact, she was working on the medieval representations of the French monument called Mont Saint Michel.
First, all the (French) researchers she met told her that there was nothing to be found. It had already been done. What did she think she was doing ?
Then she went to the French national library in Paris, only to find out that the alphabetical indexes of medieval manuscripts (yeah, medieval manuscripts, not books from the XXth century, our RARE, PRECIOUS medieval manuscripts) stopped at letter L (if I remember well) and that the work had not been resumed since stopped before WWII.
Then, she contacted the Bodleian Library, where she was granted access to the manuscripts, and by the way, indexes of many French manuscripts. She then found that many French manuscripts contained illustrations of the Mont Saint Michel, but that nobody knew of them in France because the inventory had not been carried through. The librarians from the Bodleian offered here microfilms of the manuscripts she was interested in, at no cost.
France often boasts being the "country of culture". Well, our experience is that it's easier to research French manuscripts abroad, say from England, than it is from France.
I have a feeling these wikipedia guardians are doing just the same. For the sake of "knowledge". Ha. (sad laugh).
And I agree with you, Comics is a respectable art-form. I ALSO begun reading comics, then books. But hey, snobs are snobs. And often idiots, in the long run.
1 Nov 2009 13:24
By Serein
5. On Sunday, November 1 2009, 13:24 by Serein
Bonjour,
Je me permet de répondre, en tant que contributrice régulière à Wikipédia, pour essayer de vous apporter une réponse.
La politique progressivement élaborée sur Wikipédia concernant les liens externes est assez simple : n'est normalement accepté comme lien externe qu'un lien apportant un complément encyclopédique de référence qui ne peut être intégré dans Wikipédia (le plus souvent pour des questions de droit d'auteur).
Tout lien dont on peut penser qu'il est ajouté pour "faire connaître" le site indiqué est considéré comme de la publicité et est donc supprimable. Lorsque ce lien est ajouté plusieurs fois par un contributeur qui, par ailleurs, n'apporte aucun contenu encyclopédique, on a l'habitude d'appeler ça du spam.
Je pense que ce qui s'est passé pour votre ajout de lien, c'est exactement cela : ajout d'un lien externe considéré comme publicitaire.
Pour ce qui est d'intégrer dans les articles sur les personnages de la mythologie celte des références à la culture populaire, il y a également des choix éditoriaux : on n'ajoute généralement comme référence qu'une adaptation populaire réellement notoire et largement connue. Pour vous donner un exemple trivial, dans un article sur Jules César on pourra parler de la représentation de César dans Asterix, mais sans doute pas de la représentation de César dans un web-comics peu connu.
Je ne sais absolument pas quelle est l'audience et la notoriété, ni même la reconnaissance par vos pairs de votre travail et de vos publications. Je ne sais pas si vous êtes reconnus ou non, par qui, depuis quand, quelle est votre audience etc.
Je vous donne juste les raisons de la suppression des liens que vous avez insérés. Ollamh est reconnu sur Wikipédia comme un bon connaisseur des sujets liés au monde celte en général, j'aurais tendance à lui faire confiance. Mais rien ne vous empêche bien sûr de voir avec lui quelles ont été les raisons de ses suppressions.
Bien cordialement.
1 Nov 2009 20:15
By cathbad
6. On Sunday, November 1 2009, 20:15 by cathbad
This is a translation of the previous comment, in English.
By Serein :
I allow myself to answer, as a regular wikipedia contributor, in order to try and give you an answer.
The policy gradually established by Wikipedia concerning external links is quite simple : can usually be accepted as a valid external link, a link pointing to reference material of encyclopaedic nature, which could not be directly integrated to wikipedia (usually copyrighted material).
Any link added in the sole purpose of "advertising" the linked site is considered as advertisement and hence is disposable. When the link is added several times by a contributor who, on the other hand, brings no encyclopaedic content, we're used to call that spam.
I think this is what happened to the links you added, exactly that : adding of a link considered as advertisement.
As concerns the addition to articles about Celtic mythology of references to products of pop culture, editorial choices have to be made : we usually add such a reference only if it's a well known and established material. In order to give you a trivial example, in an article about Julius Caesar, we will mention Caesar's representations in Asterix, but most likely not references to Julius Caesar from an unknown webcomic.
I have no idea of the audience and notoriety, not even the peer evaluation of your work and publications. I don't know what your credentials are, who gave them, since when, what your audience is, etc...
I'm just pointing out the reasons of the deletion of the links you provided. Ollamh is notoriously well known on wikipedia as a good specialist of topics relating to the Celtic world in general, and I tend to trust him. You can of course question him directly about the motivations of his suppressions.
Cordially.
1 Nov 2009 20:44
By cathbad
7. On Sunday, November 1 2009, 20:44 by cathbad
[Transcript in English (original below)]
First, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write this answer. We are grateful you did. Let me answer your explanations in three points :
1) At the risk of repeating myself, you do not adress our primary interrogation. How do you account for the variability of "deontological norms" from Wikipedia EN to Wikipedia FR ? It does not seem to us, that referencing webcomics such as Patrick Brown's, ours, or "An Tain" by Colmán Ó Raghallaigh et Barry Reynolds, struck the authors of articles such as "Táin Bó Cúailnge", "Irish mythology in popular culture", "Ulster Cycle", as outrageous guerilla advertising. Each one of these articles includes a specific section called "adaptations", their authors hence showing a less disdain, or "French" academism than you do.
2) Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia born of the great movement following the development of free software, and free content, since 1984, strongly rooted into the XVIIIth century's encyclopaedic utopias. Your definition of encyclopaedism makes it clear that only the works from best-selling authors, works which have made successful money, have a right to be quoted. And why aren't we that surprised ?
3) we, of course, begun by writing a note to Ollahm, on his page, to ask him for the reasons of the suppressions. Good manners. We still have received no answer from him.
That being said, we don't really care. We too have read all of Guyonvarc'h works (including the Ogham magaziners from the sixties), Dumézil, Bernard Sergent, Pierre-Yves Lambert, Claude Sterckx, Bernard Robreau, Marc Déceneux, Claude Gaignebet, etc... We strongly assert that we do know about Celtic mythology, and are ready to
seize any gauntlet that is thrown down to us. As far as we're concerned, the true online reference in French language as comes to Celtic Mythology, is a site well known to Celtic fans, called l'Arbre Celtique. To this day at least. As a matter of fact, we have already been quoted there, in the forums.
EDIT November 2 2009 : as a conclusion, I'd like to add that our unknown on-line publications, are available in their entirety, and fully open to criticism (this is what comments are for). On the contrary, the references you allude to, if I understand well, will at best be presented as link to an external summary on the editor's web site, who for obvious reasons, won't make the contents available on-line for free. It seems, when one thinks about it, that your reasoning isn't as straightforward as it seems.
Bonjour madame,
Tout d'abord, merci d'avoir pris le temps de rédiger cette réponse. Nous vous en sommes reconnaissants. Je répond à votre explication en trois points :
1) Je me permets de me répéter car vous ne répondez pas à notre interrogation principale. Quelle explication fournissez vous de la variabilité des "normes de déontologie" de wikipedia FR et EN ? Il ne semble pas que la référence aux webcomics de Paddy Brown, aux notres, ou à la bande dessinée An Tain par Colmán Ó Raghallaigh et Barry Reynolds, ait particulièrement frappé les auteurs d'articles comme "Táin Bó Cúailnge", "Irish mythology in popular culture", "Ulster Cycle", comme outrage publicitaires. Chacun de ces articles inclut une section "adaptation", leurs auteurs faisant ainsi preuve d'un peu moins, sinon de mépris, tout au moins d'académisme "à la française".
2) Wikipedia est une encyclopédie née du grand mouvement qui a suivi le développement du logiciel libre, puis du contenu libre, depuis 1984. Reprenant en la rendant enfin possible, l'utopie encyclopédique du XVIIIème siècle. Selon votre définition de l'encyclopédisme, seules les oeuvres de forte notoriété, c'est à dire, pour ce qui est de la culture populaire des 30 dernières années, des oeuvres ayant connu un grand succès commercial, monétaire, ont droit de cité. Nous sommes à peine surpris.
3) nous avons bien sûr, commencé par écrire à Ollahm, sur sa page pour nous enquérir des raisons des suppressions. Les bonnes manières avant tout. Nous n'avons pas reçu de réponse à ce jour.
Mais soit dit en passant, nous ne nous en formalisons pas outre mesure. Nous aussi avons lu tout guyonvarc'h (ou presque, la collection des revues Ogham incluse), Dumézil, Bernard Sergent, Pierre-Yves Lambert, Claude Sterckx, Bernard Robreau, Marc Déceneux, Claude Gaignebet, etc... Nous n'avons aucun doute quant-à notre connaissance du sujet et sommes prêt à relever les gants quand on nous en jette. Et en ce qui nous concerne, la référence en ligne, en langue française, sur la mythologie celtique, est un site bien connu des celtisants qui s'appelle l'arbre celtique. A ce jour tout au moins. Nous y sommes cités, d'ailleurs, dans les forums.
AJOUT : 2 novembre 2009 - j'ajouterai pour conclure que nos publications inconnues sont en lignes, intégralement consultables et critiquables (les commentaires sont fait pour cela), à l'opposé il me semble, des références auxquelles vous faites allusion, pour lesquelles vous fournirez au mieux, un lien vers un article de présentation externe sur le site d'un éditeur, qui ne va pas mettre son produit gratuitement en ligne pour des raisons évidentes. Bref, quand on y réfléchit un peu, tout cela ne nous semble pas aussi logique qu'on pourrait le croire.
2 Nov 2009 03:01
By mirlikovir
8. On Monday, November 2 2009, 03:01 by mirlikovir
[Transcript in English (original below)]
@Serein :
Before I begin, I'd like to thank you for this explicit answer.
I am a little bit surprised by the way things work. But maybe should we have taken a different approach. Would we have stood a better chance by presenting our works under a more "scientific" light ? For alas, I'm afraid that the webcomic support might be off-putting to some. As a professional illustrator, I've worked on many historical reconstructions, hand in hand with archaeologists, for museums (prehistory, antiquity, XVIIIth century,...), as well as with editors, on history books for all audiences.
This to makes clear that we do not "tarnish" Cetic mythology, as my co-worker explained. And historical references are an important part of what we do (dwellings, arms, clothing, traditions, places of worship), all subject I've studied and worked on with different specialists.
I'd like to impress on you that I'm saddened that Ollahm, as a good connoisseur of the Celtic matter, didn't notice the visual references in our works. Has he even paid a thorough visit to this site ?
Moreover, our work is freely available on-line. As fond as I can be of aviation (this is to answer to your Asterix reference), I regret not being able to afford owning an Alpha Jet in my backyard. lol. (Uderzo does).
All this makes me wonder what Vincent Van Gogh would have thought if he had had the chance to see for himself how notorious his work can be nowadays, and the massive speculation his paintings are subjected to. As my brother often, rightly states : "does talent make your CV, or your CV "make" your talent ?"
Hey, and yes, a little question to all our readers about the visual reference "Cúchulainn kills the hound of Culann, illustration by Stephen Reid from The Boys' Cuchulainn, Eleanor Hull,1904", the topmost image in the French wikipedia article (of course, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Reid's works, and not only his works about Cuchulainn) : what might the dog's breed be ? What is the weapon figured on the image, with which Setanta is supposed to have killed the dog ?
Brrrrrrlmrrrrr (drums beating), erhh... is this a Labrador dog ? or a cocker ? What about Irish wolfhounds ? And in his hand, is that a lance ? For I thought the texts clearly mentioned that Cuchulainn did kill the dog with his playing ball (sliotar).
What's your opinion about that, Serein ?
@Serein :
Avant toute chose, merci beaucoup pour votre réponse explicite.
Je suis un peu surpris de ce fonctionnement . Mais peut-être aurions nous du commencer autrement? aurions nous eu plus de chance en présentant notre travail sous un angle plus scientifique? Car hélas j'ai bien peur que la façon de présenter le sujet puisse être un point rebutant pour certain(sous forme de webcomic). En tant que qu'illustrateur professionnel je travail en reconstitution main dans la main avec des archéologues pour des musées (préhistoire,antiquité, XVIIIème siècle...), ainsi qu'avec des éditions pour des ouvrages d'informations sur l'histoire, pour la jeunesse et le tout publique .
Ceci pour expliquer que nous ne galvaudons pas le sujet comme l'a expliqué mon collaborateur. Et que les références historiques font partie intégrante du sujet(l'habitat, l'armement, le vestimentaire, les us et coutumes, les lieux de cultes...) sujets pour lesquels j'ai travaillé de manière indépendante auprès de spécialistes.
Je trouve dommage qu'ollamh étant bon connaisseur du sujet celtique n'ai pas reconnu les références visuelles et textuelles. Serait il au moins venu visiter notre site, dans son intégralité ?
De plus notre travail est une diffusion en ligne gratuite. Et pourtant je n'ai pas de mirage III dans mon jardin. hihihi alors que moi aussi j'ai toujours aimé l'aviation(ref:Asterix).
Cela m'évoque une question: que penserait Vincent Van Gogh en voyant la notoriété de son travail à l'heure actuel et la spéculation qui est faite autour?
Et comme le dit si bien mon frère, le talent fait-il le cv ou le cv fait-il le talent?
Oh et aller une petite question pour tout le monde sur la référence visuelle "Cúchulainn tue le chien de Culann, illustration par Stephen Reid dans The Boys' Cuchulainn, Eleanor Hull,1904"image en référence sur wikipédia FR(attention j'aime beaucoup le travail de ce dernier et pas seulement sur Cuchulainn): quelle est la race du chien sur l'image et avec quelle arme visiblement Setanta l'aurait-il tué?
Brrrrrrlmmrrrrr(Roulement de tambour),euh le chien est un labrador? un Cocker?... ben pourquoi le chien ne fait pas référence au wolfhound irlandais?
Et dans la main c'est une lance qu'il tient? ah ben oui. pourtant il me semblait que les textes expliquaient qu'il tuait le chien avec sa balle de jeu(sliotar)
Qu'en pensez vous Serein?
2 Nov 2009 12:45
By Code Red
9. On Monday, November 2 2009, 12:45 by Code Red
Tsk, them Frenchies, eh?
I think you're caught on the twin prongs of a situation here - firstly, comics/graphic novels are still perceived as "lowbrow" by the intellectual establishment, and the (laudable in many ways) value that the French put on defending culture and art, to the point where some have lost their sense of perspective - culture is an organic thing and is constantly growing and evolving.
At the same time, with the long and honourable history of bandes dessinées in French literature, I am a little dismayed that your scholarly works are not being given the recognition they deserve here. I hope that "Le Wiki" recognise your contribution to Celtic mythology...
2 Nov 2009 21:11
By Carlota
10. On Monday, November 2 2009, 21:11 by Carlota
Bien que je comprenne la position développée par Serein, je trouve dommage de ne pas utiliser "à fond" les potentialités qu'offre un outil comme Wikipedia...
Je m'explique.
J'ai eu l'occasion d'utiliser Wikipedia à de nombreuses reprises lors de mes années d'études pour me recherches - non pas tant pour le contenu des articles que pour les liens qui étaient référencés et qui m'ont souvent permis de découvrir des sources dont j'ignorais l'existence, certaines d'ailleurs pas vraiment "classiques", mais néanmoins très intéressantes et apportant souvent un éclairage nouveau sur le sujet étudié.
Certains de ces liens n'étaient à l'évidence ni très objectifs ni même très "scientifiques", mais n'oublions pas qu'Internet est essentiellement un outil d'information. La connaissance, elle, vient avec la réflexion.
Je conçois qu'il soit nécessaire de faire un certains "tri" dans les sources mentionnées dans les articles de Wikipedia, mais je reste convaincue que c'est à chacun de faire preuve du recul nécessaire dans l'exploitation de ces dites sources.
D'ailleurs, je me rappelle que nos professeurs nous évaluaient aussi sur la qualité, la diversité et la nouveauté des références utilisées dans nos essais...
3 Nov 2009 00:23
By iwan bolivar
11. On Tuesday, November 3 2009, 00:23 by iwan bolivar
hey, brallourion pitouch 'peus ket tra 'bet 'rall d'ober ema ho mab é oulien c'hoazh...
hey crazy motherfuckers, you ain't got nothing else to do, there 's your children crying cause they 're thirsty when you are discussing about the hypothetical recognition of our culture by a system of essentially French-speaking thought... when there is conan the barbarian passes on TV, you 're wasting your time, suckers...come on, kill them all as our grandfathers said it...We have never lost against the French troops...
batman a.k.a ar paotr logodenn benn doull....
3 Nov 2009 12:08
By cathbad
12. On Tuesday, November 3 2009, 12:08 by cathbad
@Code Red : Thanks
Bandes Dessinées are indeed a huge phenomenon in France, but as always, this leads to an establishment. Same with movies. Hopefully, there are here and there, people like Robert Redford who choose to create a Sundance Festival. In France, one of the most exciting events is the Festiblog, a webcomic-con we attended this year : such a bunch of talented artists ! This is where things do happen. Mike and Yannick, the creators of this convention, have made a point that it should remain opened and free. And they succeded. For the fith time.
@iwan bolivar : Erh. This was a manifesto of sorts... I, personnaly, am not against the French (being one myself, born in Paris (scoop! scoop!)) and believe wars should be something of the past. Seriously.
But, being an utopist, I can't help and wish that the guardians (of power, knowledge, fame,...) phenomenon should also be something of the past.